Yesterday at fellowship(Lord’s Supper) with the brethren we engaged in a interesting conversation in regards to politics. This is something I brought up simply because my view is somewhat changing about this issue largely due to a book I am reading about this-church and state etc…. We are really close at our fellowship and we all are pretty open(never really understood why this is such a discreet issue amongst people?) about our stances on politics and who we or who we are not voting for. This is one issue amongst us in our fellowship that we really really differ on. Most things we pretty much have the same mind but this is another story as I discovered yesterday.
I, on the one hand am NOT voting this election and laugh at the thought of it for various reasons. I along with the Elder at our congregation have the same view on this issue. I guess I jump on the Hyper-Calvinist camp on this issue. Others as we discovered are voting they say because they must “choose between the lesser of the evils.” Ummmm I think I will choose Abortion for $100 Alex”-”Nope not me, I will choose Gay Marriage for $200 Alex.” Being Sarcastic here, but I never have been able to grasp that logic but some seem to understand and make it walk on all fours. Logically it does not make sense to me. Furthermore some will say if you don’t vote for the lesser of the evils you are by your absence-voting anyway.
Linked here are the candidates Obama and McCain’s stances on the crucials-HERE.
This year the whole political game has agitated me more than ever. WHY?
1. These candidates all talk the same game and fluff until they get elected and then what? Then the people who want to crucify you for not voting on what they consider the larger issues, they themselves aren’t involved in their neighborhoods voting for mayors or governor’s-somewhat hypocritical to me.
2.
I work nights and listen to Bott Radio Network(a somewhat Biblical radio station) and they constantly say ridiculous things like-”Obama is the anti-Christ” and they choose to vote for McCain because they say he is more conservative and has Christian Morals. Or to be just “real” about it-because he is Republican.
3. On the secular stations like “Tom Joyner” they are a little less discreet and come out and basically say, “we voting for him because he is Black” or “This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, and its about time I got my 40 Acres and Mule-Great Grand dad would be proud.” This is even said amongst some of the Black and Reformed Christian folk.
These are some of the questions I have.
Is the next President going to change this land for the better?
What does it really mean to “vote for the lesser evil?”
Is there a Biblical mandate for believer’s to vote?
And please don’t say anything silly like, “your ancestors died-you better vote” or “Obama is your brother-brother” (Mark 3:32-35)
Tuesday, October 14, 2008
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8 comments:
Tyris, brother, you always make me think. I've just been reading, or re-reading several of your articles. Thanks for thinking deeply about issues. On voting, I'll be doing it, but can understand the frustration. It's hard to get too excited about it being an answer to much. Since we have to "do good to all men" I take it that I should vote to do whatever possible by voting, limited as it might seem, to help others. We're speeding toward socialism under all administrations, but I do want to do what is possible to secure as much freedom for believers as possible, and for the unborn. At the end of the day, God rules the affairs of men, raising up one and putting down another. On the human side, we can only trust in the benevolent sovereign will of God for us as believers (which we cannot understand until looking back), while attempting to obey the written moral law of God (which we can understand). Part of that New Covenant law is to do good for others. Otherwise, I would forget it all. JIM ELLIFF
Hey Pastor Jim,
There is a big decision facing us today. A huge issue. Now I see that you petitioned for the "do good to your neighbor" I then must ask as the religious leaders in Jesus' day "who is my neighbor"?
We are sold a two party race and to vote for any cadidate outside of that would be to no avail, though I guess for conscience sake we can say in unison "I fulilled my Civil duty". Since that is the case I have to ask which of the two are the "lesser of evils" as I always here.
If we go with Obama we have the terrible issue of abortion or lets call it what it is "murder of the unborn but alive". This is a horrible act and as we both know and affirm is taking the life of the innoncent created in the image of God. I believe the "socialism" is a stretch however, no corporate exec will vote for a man who will "speed towards socialism". Captialism is the American way and has proven to be a "horrible way" as far as distant history and even the present is proving (AIG, Bailout, Mortgage Crisis....).
But then on the other side we have McCain. I believe he values life just as less. He just believe that Muslims and soldiers should die for the cause of "America" one of the greatest idols the Church has worshipped. He teaches that democracy is a right and because of that men and women must die to spread it. He feels that Islam (and many other Right Wing Evangelicals with him) is a threat to "this great nation" and we must strike first to get the world to know that we are still a powerhouse. Not to mention there is an reckless disregard for the poor and disenfranchised that McCain and his party continues to ignore while simultaneously taking our tax dollars to further the wealth of the rich. If we don't believe that we need to look no further to the deregulation of most of the service industries and how that allowed for enormous incentives to drive the bottom line in the name of corporate bonuses.
So we have one who feels it is a woman's right to murder while the other feels it is our right to rule the globe by a military arm. One cares less about the unborn than those who are living, the other cares more about the agenda of America than he does the lives of innoncent Muslims (not to mention he believes it is our duty to protect the state of Israel which according to the Monroe Doctrine and other policies none of our business).
Finally we have to look at the impoverished. You and I both understand that education is critical. You and your family chooses to homeschool, but many of the poor and acedemically challenged can't employ that option. For some reason we forget that some parents have learning disabilities and can't educate their children while others who may can can't afford to because of the loss of a spouse or they made bad decisions when they were young and thus are paying for those decsions.
We have had an educational crisis where the wealthy has all of the latest books, teachers go to the latest conferences discussing advancements in education, they have the latest technology and they have our brightest minds in a safe and affluent atmosphere. Well on the other hand those who are less fortunate have little to nothing. They can't afford the best minds, the best technology, nor the best atmosphere and those schools constantly under perform and the drop out rates show it.
McCain and the republicans can care less. They continue to believe that "its their problem" not the governments. While the government happens to be the source of ghettos and impoverished. While they cut funding to headstart and other preschool type of education and in turn gives AIG 85 billion dollars to bail them out, we have to say we have a serious problem on our hand. So the rich gets richer the poor gets poorer and there is a perpetual mirage before us that says "if you all work hard you to can make it". Impoverished schools are over populated and underfunded and McCain can care less about "doing good to all men" his slogan is "do good to rich man and I hope it trickles down".
So in closing neither man cares much about his neighbor they are two half dozen in one and one full in the other. Obama's blatant disregard for the living unborn and McCains over zealous patriotism (which has taken the lives of many soldiers and Muslims) does harm to our neighbors. So all in all to abstain from voting would be just as good as voting in relation to our neighbor.
Tyris & Lionel,
First, let me say that I don't usually post comments as I feel that it's probable that wiser men & women have already addressed whatever the issue may be. I'm sure it's true in this instance as well, but I'll risk it anyway. Second, I love the issues you guys take on; no one can accuse you of walking on egg shells.
In the last two elections, I've voted for a supposed Christian. Is our country headed in a more Christian direction as a result? I would struggle to point to many (if any) examples of any significant progress....with one exception, judicial appointments.
The executive and legislative branches of our government get most of the press. Each with their endless ranting of diametric talking points between the conservatives and liberals played and replayed for our consumption on whatever flavor of cable news you prefer. Meanwhile, the judicial branch and the judicial system across this country quietly hand down rulings everyday that have the potential to impact all of our everyday lives in real time. If, for no other reason, I will be voting and I will cast my vote for who I believe will make the type of judicial appointments (judges) that will not further "re-interpret" the constitution to further erode what Judeo-Christian virtues still remain in the decaying bedrock that underlies everything we Christians take for granted in this country. Regardless of your religious or political leanings, it is a fact that this country and its constitution were founded on Judeo-Christian values. When judges systematically rule against one Judeo-Christian tainted law or tradition after another, it seemingly becomes like a game of "Jenga" where you keep pulling out the wooden pieces until the whole thing comes crashing down. So, perhaps it's pragmatic or selfish of me, but I hope to lengthen the Christian liberty we still enjoy as long as possible for my children and theirs. We should all be ashamed of how we take this liberty for granted. The following website always deeply convicts me in just how much I take for granted;
http://www.persecution.com/
Don't deceive yourselves into thinking the type of persecution described on this website could never happen in this country. Not so many years ago, we all would have said the same thing about same-sex marriage, until a judge in MA decided the issue for us all.
Anyway, whether we vote or not, this country will get the president it deserves.... God's sovereignty will not be trumped. But, we all know He works through means. Will you refuse to be used in His means?
Love you brothers,
Greg Simpson
hey Greg!!! I thought you got hungry for some grapes and went back to the "Vineyard" Just Kidding. Good to hear from you brother!v Thanks for you thought on the issue. I would not say that not voting is a refusal to be used by God's means. First off let me say-Lionel-unlike me I think is actually voting. so I cannot speak for him. I have been doing some looking at Obama and Mccain and personally think If I was voting it would proabably be Mccain over Obama, but either way I am not choosing either one of them. One thing I think that people forget is the fact that the candidates are ultimately chosen by the electoral votes per state and this is why the puppets try as hard as they can to win popular vote in certain states. I know-usually the percentage of the votes by the people play a major factor but the electoral votes can still overthrow the peoples votes. I will be obedient and pray for those in authority over this land but just have chosen not to partake in this election. I know many of us know about the regulartory principle-well do we think that the apostles of Christ would have partook in something like this? A Little different world but it just seems from the scriptures that they had little or no interest in the things we talk about now. Just a thought though. Thanks for visiting- I am slowly getting back to writing. Love you brothers, In Christ
Greg,
Tell my great great grandmother this country was built on "Christian" values I thought the two greatest commands were to "love the Lord your God and love your neighbor". I don't know how this nation skipped that verse in Matthew 22:37-38 not to mention the rest of the NT and still considered themselves remotely Christian. Oh yeah there were some people called Indians they have been confound to one part of the nation now due to great "christian values".
The same "conservative" judges had did absolutely nothing to Roe vs. Wade and if we are to anything with marriage it should be to MAKE heterosexuals work it out. I have never met anyone not one person who has been negatively effected by homosexual marriage but I know and have heard thousands of stories of those who have been devestated by heterosexual marriages.
Finally, I think for the most part if liberty is the issue we should allow all to have an equal voice. To appoint judges with "judeo-christian" values means to trumpcate the liberty of the Muslims (they can't take ID's with their clothing on, and some of their students have had to fight for the right to wear head converings and such in schools), those who worship the god of homosexuality should have the freedom to marry and share the rights of all Americans, and whomoever else comes to the table. When I hear Christians talking about liberty in fear of being persecuted they usually don't care about infringing on the rights of others (gay marriage being one). I don't get that.
Just my opinion but I think our life experiences and our historic differences may cause a bit of a divide. Most African Americans are against the war, our against big business getting favored in the tax discussion while programs for the poor are cut, we are tired of the religious song being sang and nothing being done (it is funny that we can start a war but for 8 years there was no movement on Roe vs Wade though the Right had the house, senate, and presidency)and we are tired hearing that Iraq was bout WMDs and freedom while those of a darker complexion in Sudan, Zimbabwe, Somalia and the like are ignored though they have been under unjust tyranny for years.
I just believe that my white conservative brothers take the pill no matter what the dosage is. As long as the pill looks the same (Republican) then it is all good.
Lionel,
I'll say only a little more about the subject as it seems that what I've already said was taken as an offense, which I regret.
Forgive me, it was not my intention to give offense.
There are many truths in your response to my previous comment. Yet, judicial erosion of liberty is also a very real and growing truth and I don't think that preserving religious liberty means that liberty for other groups (however you define them) must suffer.
Yes, I have white skin and I am socially conservative, but of exceedingly more importance and value to me, I am your brother in Christ and I long for the day that this joyous commonality closes any divide that life experiences or historic differences may seem to have placed between us.
Greg
Greg,
I am not offended, I think I may commuincate a little too strongly but if you think I was offended I am not. I do enjoy a good political and theological debate. I think where you and I may disagree is in the the role of religion in the secular arena. I believe all voices should dine at the table of secular society. Because of that I am very careful in the Church's role in function in that arena. I believe the role of liberty should be our stance and maybe we should even fight to maintain an equal voice with all religions. That no one should be subdued and because I stand against things like a marriage act and other such things barring homosexuals from full and equal rights as American Citizens even marriage for that part. Now many will disagree with me, but I believe I am not allowed to force my religous value system on others regardless of how convinced I am.
As it relates to race I believe Blacks and Whites disagree on most issues. Most blacks that I know care less about the right to bear arms, have no desire to fight wars with countries that aren't an immediate threat, and care less about what you do with a flag. I do believe the stain of an unjust "democracy" has persuaded many blacks to vote for Barrack. Most blacks feel that he would be the most fair and would show the world that we aren't what BET, Fox News and Bill Oriely makes us out to be. I have to use the word us because regardless of what most will say, when you see me, you see a black man (not you as in Greg). Most people in the deep dark corners of their house use this categorization but come in public and say that don't. So immediately as humans we put people in categories and only through relatioship do we remove them
As brothers in Christ we are brothers in Christ! I have no beef but with the adversary who is Satan. We have one common enemy and he can care less about race, and uses it only when it divides humanity and especially the body. However, I just want to speak as a normal black dude. And what I conveyed in my previous post is what most blacks are thinking. They feel hoodwincked and mistreated, and stereotyped and this is finally a chance to have "our" voices heard in America.
There is nothing but love between us. Though I don't know you I know whose you are and because of that we meet at the same table. Not to mention I am under the conviction that humans are created in the image of God and so bears His name. Because of that I will treat all man fairly and though I cringe when I watch roots, read books and memoirs about slavery, cry when I see my ancestors in the flesh sprayed by water hoses, marching in Alabama, bitten by dogs, beat with billy clubs, and not allowed to be considered human though "this was a Christian nation" (not to mention this nation was somehow more Christian then than they are now, which I don't understand given the systemized racism that plagued this nation) I know that it wasn't you and most of those folks are dead and gone, so I interact with you as one unified by one common flag with 50 stars but even more we have one common Father and we are adopted in the same family and we will spend eternity together so I commanded by scripture and moved by the Spirit to love you more than any black person who is not redeemed and to live for you, visit you in prison, bring you something to wear and drink (Matthew 25) regardless of your ancestoral background.
Really helpful comments guys. I appreciate the insights.
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